Curse

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Let me explain to you the difference between an overpowered combo (which is still counterable) and a skill that renders 30% of the game useless.

I guess the skill rendering 30% of the game useless is an opinon, because I dissagree with it, and I assume you're not an idiot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

2 warriors
2 rangers
1 mesmer
3 monks

Holy crap that was hard to coordinate. 90% of every spirit team runs something similar to that for one reason: everything else is enchantment/hex dependant. I'm also curious to hear how spamming fertile seaons is hard to coordinate.

Well first of all, what you just did was not coordination that was a basic preset of character classes. Also, most good spirit builds, and most builds in general do not spam fertile season. As I said, there's a fine line between a good spirit build and a spirit build. And unfortnantly neither can be killed by a bad team. But a good build can beat a bad spirit build. And even a good build can beat a good spirit team, its just a matter of practice and talent, and skill level. The problem that you're probably having is that good guilds run spirit builds, because they're the most expedient way to kill inexperienced, or unorganized teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

1. Don't those 2 statements contridict each other?
2. I did some quick figureing and going 16-0 would give you 200 or more points. Subtract that from 1463 and you have ~1250, which is roughly rank 450. I'm sure you met some real stiff competition coming up those ranks.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about, but when we started a spirit build we were rank 220ish, and now we're rank 80ish, beating some guilds who were sub 50. So, yeah, not really sure what you're talking about with this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Ever stop to think about why? Spirits are skills, spell interuptions don't work. You need to KD or use some warrior attacks or something. Kill the spirits? Oh, you mean the ones with near 1000 life?

Leech Signet is a skill interupt, Incendiary arrows is an action/skill/spell interupt, choaking gas is the same, and any knockdown skill will stop it. And yes, there are some swift ways to kill spirits, figure them out, they don't move.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

What if we don't want to run a spirit build? Should we suck it up and never use an enchant or hex again and just hope for the best? I think we have another strategic genius on our hands.

Well, killing spirits is one remedy, and I never said run a spirit build, I said be able to run in it. Bring hexes, bring enchants, but dont make that the mainstay of your build. Even without spirits you shouldn't do that anyway. Hexes can be removed, and enchants as well, if you make both of these the mainstay of your builds, then you're screwed with or without spirits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

If all builds have a counter, tell me the counter to spirit spam. A real counter, killing 1000 hp spirits or draining a character than only needs 5 energy/skill is not a counter.

As I said, and you quoted below that, why should I help you? I'm perfectly content running with spirits, why should I do your dirty work for you? I would no sooner tell you the particular spirit build my guild runs than tell you how to beat it, that would be what some people would call stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I think some of you miss the reason we complain so much about spirit spam. There are 2 main problem skills:
1. Fertile Seasons: something about making everything on the map near invincible for period of time sounds pretty cheesy, especially on koth maps.
2. Nature Renewal: this skill takes a giant crap on 30% of the skills and people still defend it. I guess they don't like hexes.

Fertile Season requires beast mastery, and unless they're running 2 spammers of this, its just time before they run out, if you bring the proper capabilities to stop them. If they are running 2 spirit spammers, then they cant kill you, just keep putting huge energy pressure on the monks until they die. BTW as I said previously, most good spirit groups especially in GvG don't have a spirit spammer.

Nature's Renewal is a skill that is basically only a big problem if you have a spirit spammer, and a group with a spirit spammer isnt going to do well if you bring the right tools, or if they have a group with multiple, at least 3 renewal casters. In which case, put away your hexes and enchants for a fight, use the other skills you should have brought.

Preparation is key, and if you don't prepare, don't complain.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Thank you Maltare, I remember facing you guys as well with our spirit build in NOOB. Just to let you know, we have lost while playing our spirit build, and to builds that didn't spam spirits also. NOOB recently reformed into No Silence (NoS) after a bit of internal reorganization; and we worked up the guild ladder to rank 22 without using a spirit spam build at all, so don't tell me it's impossible to do, we did it, and beat guilds like Ward against Noobs (Wa), Nuclear Launch Detected (Nu) who ran spirits. Both of those are top 10 guilds, or sometimes fluctuate to 12 or 13, but don't try telling me they aren't good.

Before anyone asks, no, I won't tell you our build, or tactics because honestly why should I? I will tell you it's possible and we did it, so go design some new team builds and figure it out.

Top ranked guilds can decide to run spirit spam if they like, because it's a quick way to beat bad teams without much trouble. Is it their fault? No. It's the bad teams that let them do this, but when they face good teams, their spirit spam is no longer overpowered and completely possible to overcome.

For you Tuna, get your guild at least in the top 400, then you can talk about being experienced, so far the only other experienced player I've seen is Maltare, and he agrees with me. Another fyi, after matches against many low ranked guilds when we decide to run a spirit build, we hear complaints about overpowered spirits, but against decent guilds (at minimum top 100), you don't hear anything like this, you hear "great game guys, or good fight". If you can prove to me that the top 20 guilds are all noobs, you might have an argument.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maltare

I guess the skill rendering 30% of the game useless is an opinon, because I dissagree with it, and I assume you're not an idiot.

I'll make a list of every skill that NR sends to the trash heap and then we'll have an exact number.

Quote:

I'm not really sure what you're talking about, but when we started a spirit build we were rank 220ish, and now we're rank 80ish, beating some guilds who were sub 50. So, yeah, not really sure what you're talking about with this one.

I assumed roughly 12 points per win. 12x16=192. Either you were fighting a lot of really low ranked guilds (for roughly 9 points/win) or you weren't rank 220. Either way its not very impressive.

Quote:

Leech Signet is a skill interupt, Incendiary arrows is an action/skill/spell interupt, choaking gas is the same, and any knockdown skill will stop it. And yes, there are some swift ways to kill spirits, figure them out, they don't move.

Incindiary arrows isn't a practical interupt and you know it. (for this application) Pretty much every other skill interupt requires los or melee range, which isn't helpfull at all due to spirits large range. Leech signet has a 45 sec recharge, what a lovely interupt.

Quote:

f you make both of these the mainstay of your builds, then you're screwed with or without spirits.

Absolutley incorrect. My guild nearly beat nO with hexes as the primary damage source. Only reason we lost is because we got to far into their guild hall.

Quote:

Fertile Season requires beast mastery, and unless they're running 2 spammers of this, its just time before they run out, if you bring the proper capabilities to stop them. If they are running 2 spirit spammers, then they cant kill you, just keep putting huge energy pressure on the monks until they die. BTW as I said previously, most good spirit groups especially in GvG don't have a spirit spammer.

Since when do you have to kill people to win a koth map? Maybe thats what I was doing wrong...

Quote:

Nature's Renewal is a skill that is basically only a big problem if you have a spirit spammer, and a group with a spirit spammer isnt going to do well if you bring the right tools, or if they have a group with multiple, at least 3 renewal casters. In which case, put away your hexes and enchants for a fight, use the other skills you should have brought.

Ether renewal is only a problem when used in conjuction with draw conditions and zealots fire if you look at it like that.

edit:

Quote:

For you Tuna, get your guild at least in the top 400, then you can talk about being experienced, so far the only other experienced player I've seen is Maltare, and he agrees with me. Another fyi, after matches against many low ranked guilds when we decide to run a spirit build, we hear complaints about overpowered spirits, but against decent guilds (at minimum top 100), you don't hear anything like this, you hear "great game guys, or good fight". If you can prove to me that the top 20 guilds are all noobs, you might have an argument.

Is this the one you were looking for? http://img298.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw0247ey.jpg

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 04:17 AM // 04:17

I just thought of an interesting parralel. Complaining about spirits when you dont bring any interupts or you bring only hexes and enchants, is like complaining about a group with massive amounts of poison and you don't bring any condition removal. Or complaining about Spikers when you bring no wards/stances/interupts. Or complaining about warriors when you don't bring any blind/wards/chance to block/dodge/evade. It's all equally rediculous.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Tuna, please just stop, quite a few things in your last post made not sense at all. When was this that your guild "almost" beat nO? Last time I checked "almost" wasn't good enough, and playing them 3 months ago isn't applicable to the current state of the metagame. Get some real experience with the high end of GW GvG then come back. Another thing, I'm in no way talking about the lasting power of spirits, I'm talking about beating them. Maybe in 10 minutes in HoH it's more difficult, but like I said, my guild does it every time we feel like going to tombs, we haven't lost a 1v1, or an altar match unless we get a lame hero bug (flies into the air and we can't control him) or get double teamed. Any time other than that was against a good guild that knew what they were doing.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maltare

I just thought of an interesting parralel. Complaining about spirits when you dont bring any interupts or you bring only hexes and enchants, is like complaining about a group with massive amounts of poison and you don't bring any condition removal. Or complaining about Spikers when you bring no wards/stances/interupts. Or complaining about warriors when you don't bring any blind/wards/chance to block/dodge/evade. It's all equally rediculous.

No its not, there about a ton of skills that counter conditions to the point of uselessness. Spikers get the can with one skill. Warriors have it a bit tougher but there doesn't seem to be a problem. There is one skill with a 45sec recharge that "effectivley" counters spirit spam.

edit:

Quote:

Tuna, please just stop, quite a few things in your last post made not sense at all. When was this that your guild "almost" beat nO? Last time I checked "almost" wasn't good enough, and playing them 3 months ago isn't applicable to the current state of the metagame. Get some real experience with the high end of GW GvG then come back. Another thing, I'm in no way talking about the lasting power of spirits, I'm talking about beating them. Maybe in 10 minutes in HoH it's more difficult, but like I said, my guild does it every time we feel like going to tombs, we haven't lost a 1v1, or an altar match unless we get a lame hero bug (flies into the air and we can't control him) or get double teamed. Any time other than that was against a good guild that knew what they were doing.

I don't even know why I'm taking this flame bait :/ Last time I checked killing 90% of nO's npcs and giving them all 35%+ dp was pretty good. With hexes. What higher experience than rank 3 would you like? (before you start bitching about it, it was the final beta, which happened to also be one of the last times DrkH was strong)

edit2: ok, whatever, if I don't convince you thats fine with me. Perhaps someday you will realize what I'm talking about.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 04:30 AM // 04:30

In response to your screenshot of rank 3, again I'm talking about sometime even remotely recently. The game is played very differently than it was 3 months ago, the metagame is in a state of constant change, so experience for 3 months ago is no longer applicable, spirits weren't even in mass use 3 months ago, so where'd you get all this experience against spirit builds? Or am I right in saying everything you've said so far in this post has just been the theorizing from a member of a has been top ranked guild.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 04:35 AM // 04:35

I'm not trying to flame anyone, just stating, honestly, that 3 month old experience is not good enough to be commenting on the good guilds of today. Everything is SO different, it's not your fault, it just is. Leech Signet is not the only good interrupt, many classes have very nice ones that interrupt more than just spells, but I'll leave that for you to find.

Stuntastic · Aug 10, 2005, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Usually Gale while targeting spirits will effectively shut down a spirit spammer. If one of the opposing team's damage dealers or interrupters is forced to target a galer instead of a monk then it will still do its job by lessening the strain of the healers. You might say, "Well what if they use spellbreaker?". They most likely won't. If the team is spamming spirits then they are probably an endurance based build meaning the monks are carrying energy drain as their elite skill. The spammer will be carrying a dodge or block skill most likely and not something to counter knockdowns.

NR doesn't eliminate half of the skills from the game if you know how to stop the spammer from using the it. That doesn't mean load up on hexes and keep the spirit spammer shut down with gale. What it means is only use the hexes and enchantments if they serve an actual purpose in the build then use gale to make them effective.

Aug 10, 2005, 04:48 AM // 04:48

God. For like the last damn time most interrupts cant touch NR. Rangers run around in stances, which leaves Leech Sig and Cry of Frustration as your only reliable hope due to no arrow interrupt ever getting through. Both lose to Oath Shot and thats the basics of why you cant interrupt a spirit spammer. Jeez, this takes a good 4 seconds of thinking to figure out.

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I'll make a list of every skill that NR sends to the trash heap and then we'll have an exact number.

Okay, but then I get to throw out every skill on your list that's trash anyway, and then I'll put in the category of the ones that I agree with you and the ones I dissagree with you, and we'll see in the agreement pile if that's 30% I bet you its not, and then also we'll combine and see if we get 30%, which we probably wont.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I assumed roughly 12 points per win. 12x16=192. Either you were fighting a lot of really low ranked guilds (for roughly 9 points/win) or you weren't rank 220. Either way its not very impressive.

Well I can look it up for you if you're really that curious. I can't quite remember for sure what our rank was, I just know it was in the 200's 220 sounded right at the time. But I have all 16 wins on record if you REALLY want them. Either way, what's your point? I just said that we won 16 in a row to signify that they do work well if you know what you're doing. And if you're trying to say that my guilds rank isnt impressive, well neither is that rank 460 or whatever it is. So don't even try to go there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Incindiary arrows isn't a practical interupt and you know it. (for this application) Pretty much every other skill interupt requires los or melee range, which isn't helpfull at all due to spirits large range. Leech signet has a 45 sec recharge, what a lovely interupt.

What in God's name are you talking about? Incendiary Arrows isnt practical? You're kidding right? You've just proven that you no longer have the experience you claim to have at one time possessed. Go look at skills for a while and try telling me again that every knockdown skill is melee range, or shoot, blackout... and leech signet is just for icing, if you only bring leech signet then yes, you're a moron. But yes, I do like leech signet thank you very much. It works well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Absolutley incorrect. My guild nearly beat nO with hexes as the primary damage source. Only reason we lost is because we got to far into their guild hall.

When was this? And you lost? And you're using it as an example of something relavent to todays GW gameplay? That seems a little silly don't you think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Since when do you have to kill people to win a koth map? Maybe thats what I was doing wrong...

Probably.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Ether renewal is only a problem when used in conjuction with draw conditions and zealots fire if you look at it like that.

Thank you for bringing this up it proves my point entirely. So because Ether renewal when used in conjunction with zealots fire and draw conditions is a very good skill we should nerf Ether Renewal? I hardly think so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

edit:

Is this the one you were looking for? http://img298.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw0247ey.jpg

Ehem, I think you were looking for this... http://ladder.guildwars.com/ladder.d...=Dark+Horizons

Stuntastic · Aug 10, 2005, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Blackace......Did you even read my post?

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

What in God's name are you talking about? Incendiary Arrows isnt practical? You're kidding right? You've just proven that you no longer have the experience you claim to have at one time possessed. Go look at skills for a while and try telling me again that every knockdown skill is melee range, or shoot, blackout... and leech signet is just for icing, if you only bring leech signet then yes, you're a moron. But yes, I do like leech signet thank you very much. It works well.

Thank you for asking. Spirits have 5 sec cast times. IA has a 2 second cast time, plus you have to make an attack and wait for the arrow to get there, so you're up to 3-4 seconds. Add in some reaction speed and you missed it.

The nO game was... not very long ago. Spirit spam was already going on but not heavily in gvg. No idea of the exact date. The point of the example was that hexes can take out a team, nothing else.

I don't think you guys read the part where DrkH was a strong guild and is dying due to internal issues. Rank 3 has relevance only because I was on the team at the time and DrkH has done well in retail untill recently (last few weeks). This would indicate that my skill is not in question, but more the functionality of the guild as a whole which I already said was broken. Personal attacks aren't going to do anything except make you look stupid.

Zeru · Aug 10, 2005, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Gale loses to oath shot via exhaustion. It's not as immediate but it will lose.

It's amazed at how many people defy logic staring at them in the face.

There's no real point in trying to help those who refuse to see any side but their own, even if their reasons and rational are terrible. If you don't want to be convinced, fine, be content in your ignorance. Just please don't ever comment on balance issues.

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Personal attacks aren't going to do anything except make you look stupid.

Ditto(I take attacks, even if minor, on my guild, personal. I guess it's that whole team effort thing.) and still, incendiary arrows is the best interupt in my opinion. Say what you will, but i have experience to back it up.

Edit: 3 Weeks is a long time in this game. Things happen and change very quickly in it.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maltare

Ditto(I take attacks, even if minor, on my guild, personal. I guess it's that whole team effort thing.) and still, incendiary arrows is the best interupt in my opinion. Say what you will, but i have experience to back it up.

Edit: 3 Weeks is a long time in this game. Things happen and change very quickly in it.

Yet you slander my guild?

Incidiary arrows is wonderfull if you're interupting 'anything' but if you're going after 1 skill its useless.

3 weeks isn't really a long time since there hasn't been any changes in 3 weeks and great things like spirit spam are keeping metagame from evolving. I don't think I've missed anything.

Stuntastic · Aug 10, 2005, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Gale loses to oath shot via exhaustion. It's not as immediate but it will lose.

If you have a build that can defeat spirit spammers you should be able to kill the
team before exhaustion kicks in.

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Yet you slander my guild?

Incidiary arrows is wonderfull if you're interupting 'anything' but if you're going after 1 skill its useless.

3 weeks isn't really a long time since there hasn't been any changes in 3 weeks and great things like spirit spam are keeping metagame from evolving. I don't think I've missed anything.

Well, you claim them so highly so, and use it as some sort of defense for your position, and by all rights its not a very good defense. So I brought it down. You brought it up first.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuntastic

If you have a build that can defeat spirit spammers you should be able to kill the
team before exhaustion kicks in.

You win the award for worst arguement ever.

Aug 10, 2005, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuntastic

Blackace......Did you even read my post?

yea and thats one of the reasons I made that post.